Talk:Xenogender

Edit Request
Please move stub template to top, thanks. Tactical Balaclava 03:08, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Done, you're welcome! Immi Thrax  (she/her) (message me) 03:31, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Citation 5 "PsychReel" is incorrect
I don't know how to fix this citation but I found the correct source for what the passage is referencing. Additionally the page is locked, so I am not able to correct it regardless. I requested help on this topic in this forum post, but so far the admins have only been able to fight other people about the offensive passage and none of them can apparently help me with this citation's format. Forum post: https://lgbtqia.fandom.com/f/p/4400000000000031486 Here is the correct source: https://web.archive.org/web/20140408123152/https://www.genderspectrum.org/child-family/faq CatboyMorgan (talk) 03:15, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Probably something like this:


 * Bear in mind that I think "spectrum" is already a ref name on that page, and so this citation might already be in use elsewhere. Hope that helps! 03:24, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I looked over the list of sources, and "genderspectrum.org" is not mentioned whatsoever in the list. It is definitely not cited anywhere on the page. Unfortunately a mod will have to fix this citation as the page is locked. CatboyMorgan (talk) 03:37, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Looking into the site currently cited, it's definitely not a good source. Its sources cited at the bottom of the page are, drum roll please, the Xenogender pages on Nonbinary Wiki and the LGBTA FANDOM Wiki (the one getting deleted!). There is no writer, it's full of typos, and the "scientific review board" is ... nobody. There's nobody on the board. You click the link and it takes you to a page that says "Scientific Review Board." The article is from earlier this month and it's a wordpress site. Poking around, I can see that there are absolutely no real people associated with this site. Every link that says "meet our experts" just takes you to the top of the page that text is on. It's a clickbait contentfarm with pop psychology. Why was this added? CatboyMorgan (talk) 05:08, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Disputed passage
I edited the passage so it would no longer be offensive, which then got written over to a version that was incorrect to the referenced passage and additionally was basically the offensive passage with more words. I tried to correct a criticism (my passage had unintentionally implied this was exclusive to xenogender children) but my passage was reverted to the offensive passage and then the page was locked.

For ease of reference here is my passage. I originally thought just "xenogender children" would be acceptable for this passage (as the page is about xenogender people) but as someone felt this implied children of other nonbinary identities and genders may not also present this way, I changed it. "Young nonbinary children may approach" would also work, if "nonbinary and xenogender children" seems to imply that xenogender people are not also nonbinary. Young nonbinary and xenogender children may approach this gap by refusing to label themselves by gender, only using their name; identifying themselves as animals; and drawing themselves in self portraits as rainbows, unicorns, or other symbols they choose. CatboyMorgan (talk) 03:15, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


 * That's because this passage indicates that only young people / children use names / names of animals and objects, while we know full-well that xenogender adults do it too. THe original is in reference only to a linguistic phenomenon. Another example (thought different) can be seen with the use in Australian English to use "diminutives" to refer to objects that should note be "cutified": a horsie is a cute horse. a bikie is not a cute biker. and yet the term 'bikie' exists in AusE and is used by adults and childeren alike to refer to members of motorcycle gangs. Same with the example currently on the page. It's just a quirk of the language shared between children and adults. Doesn't make the adults "childish". 03:20, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


 * How does it imply this? What would I need to add to the passage so it no longer implies this? Would adding a sentence at the end that says "Adults may also do this as they feel it suits them best." work? or "Many adults take the same approach to express themselves."? Also, the passage from the citation only mentions children, so it's not exactly appropriate to use it for adults...
 * Here is the referenced text from the source:
 * "How can my child have no gender or a blended gender?
 * Not all children fit neatly into a male or female gender identity, trans or otherwise. For some children, the sense of being “both” or “neither” best describes their reality. Children seeing themselves as “both” will often explain that whether with a group of girls or a group of boys, they feel “at home.” Such a child will often speak of being more of one some days and more of the other on different days. These children might best be described as fluid in their gender. One therapist reported how some of the teens coming into the practice were describing themselves as “gender Priuses; you know, hybrids!”


 * Children who see themselves as “neither” will often speak of how regardless of whether they’re with a group of boys or girls, they feel like they don’t fit. This is not necessarily a sad feeling. They just see the kids around them and know that they are not “that.” Kids in this category often appear androgynous, and will frequently answer the question “are you a boy or a girl” by saying their name (“I’m Devon”) or by identifying themselves as animals. When asked to draw self portraits, they will portray themselves as rainbows, or unicorns, or another symbol of their choosing."


 * I don't see what diminutive nicknames in Australia have to do with this.
 * CatboyMorgan (talk) 03:33, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Okay, I hope there's no edit conflict as I write this...
 * This is the original paragraph:
 * Xenogender people may feel as though they lack the terms to fully express their gender or identity, something that derives from the lexical gap. The term in of itself was designed to help fill the lexical gap by using terms not typically associated with gender. This phenomenon of using non-typical descriptors to convey an emotion or identity is also seen in young children who lack the an understanding of how to refer to oneself. When asked to draw self-portraits, children will typically depict their sense of self or feelings as "rainbows", "unicorns", or another chosen symbol. Xenogender people find it difficult to relate to the typical gender spectrum, instead using non-gender related terms to describe their own gender or sense of self. These parallels are indicative of many things, including a scale of creativity and desire to fill a lexical gap so both themselves and others will understand better.
 * The bolding is mine. My question is, the paragraph as it currently stands already shows that this is a trait used by children AND xenogender adults, independent of each other. Why do we need to change anything? 03:42, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


 * First of all, it is not accurate to what they are referencing. They draw themselves as unicorns and rainbows, not their sense of self or their feelings.
 * This phenomenon of using non-typical descriptors to convey an emotion or identity is also seen in young children who lack the an understanding of how to refer to oneself.
 * Multiple xenogender people have taken issue with this sentence. It feels derogatory and belittling. I also just noticed there's a typo, so an admin should fix that at least. This is mainly what I originally aimed to fix.
 * Xenogender people find it difficult to relate to the typical gender spectrum, instead using non-gender related terms to describe their own gender or sense of self.
 * This sentence is the same as the first two sentences of the passage in meaning. There's no issue, but it is repetitive. I also like the way the first two sentences are phrased more, this one feels off.
 * These parallels are indicative of many things, including a scale of creativity and desire to fill a lexical gap so both themselves and others will understand better.
 * This feels condescending towards xenogender people. With this sentence I feel as if the admins are saying "Look, we called you creative and stuff, will you shut up now?" like xenogender people are petulant children that have to be appeased. It hasn't escaped my notice that not once has a staff member responded to anything I've said, not even the bad citation, but they had plenty of time to argue with people on the forums.
 * CatboyMorgan (talk) 04:11, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I do want to point out " "Look, we called you creative and stuff, will you shut up now?"" nobody here would ever imply that intentionally. Supreme Emperor Holocomm 04:17, 23 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Whether it was the admins' intent to be offensive or not, they have been, and multiple xenogender people have complained about this passage. I've seen admins call xenogender people "xenogendered" and "xenogenders," which is very insulting, and it makes me doubt their ability to write for this page. I, in fact, had to remove "xenogendered" from this page. From the very passage that's disputed. It's the only part of my edit that stuck. (An admin claimed they did it. It was me.) I wrote a non-offensive passage and it was replaced with a more offensive version of the passage I had tried to fix. I don't understand why we are being told to "fix the pages ourselves" if we're not really allowed to fix the pages ourselves because all the edits will get reverted or worse.


 * Here is my updated proposed passage. I have included the full paragraph this time. I have checked this with other xenogender people and they approved of it. It should no longer imply only children do this.
 * Xenogender people may feel as though they lack the terms to fully express their gender or identity, something that derives from the lexical gap. The term in of itself was designed to help fill the lexical gap by using terms not typically associated with gender. Young nonbinary and xenogender children may approach this gap by refusing to label themselves by gender, only using their name; identifying themselves as animals; and drawing themselves in self portraits as rainbows, unicorns, or other symbols they choose.[CITATION HERE SEE ABOVE] Many adults, xenogender or not, take the same approach to express themselves as well.
 * Please note that the citation is specifically about children and so must be next to the sentence about children. CatboyMorgan (talk) 05:44, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

France
The article says, "some of the offline trans community (such as in France) has been heatedly debating the inclusion of xenogender identities in trans support networks and political activism." That paragraph corresponds to a web archived source of a journal. I don't believe this journal was published offline from what I could tell, so I doubt the sentence is corresponding to the fact the source is a physical source. What's the sourcing for this sentence? I couldn't find anything about debate surrounding xenogenders in France specifically and I'd love to know more and of course, make sure the article is properly sourced. Also, honestly, I feel like this article as a whole has a lot of problems with sourcing. There are a decent amount of sentences I cannot find references for which correspond to their information. Birdkiller (he/him) (talk) 01:20, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It was published in a peer-reviewed academic journal and subsequently republished in an ebook. The exact sentence being referenced reads: "The issue of the 'inclusion' of xenogenders within trans politics and support networks is a burning issue in the 'global' (i.e., predominantly North American) online trans community, as well as in a few places of the physical world, including France." I believe I accurately paraphrased this in the article. What are some specific sourcing problems you're concerned about? Immi Thrax  (she/her) (message me) 01:39, 25 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Good to know, for some reason the link wasn't working properly and I was curious to know more. The link you just gave did, so thank you! Hm, I think I may have mistaken other lack of references for a different article...That's my bad. Second time it's happened when I'm looking at two articles at the same time! I really need to double-check my posts better, haha. Ah, I believe it may have been the ceterosexual page I was concerned about proper sourcing, but I see rewrite templates on it now, or maybe the MOGAI article, but I think a few unsources sentence from that article were removed recently if I'm reading correctly.Birdkiller (he/him/his) (talk) 21:37, 27 March 2022 (UTC)